Leaving The Flock Interview

Hey, I hope y'all will take a moment to read this interview I conducted over the last month with someone who, after a lifetime of devotion, decided to leave the Mormon Church. I think it's honest, genuine, and agenda-free. The only intention setting out was to provoke consideration, which I think both of us very much hope it will.
After the Charlie Kirk shooting, and the subsequent debate over the acceptable ways to process violence, politics, religion, partisanship, free speech, gun control, satire, apostasy, and propaganda, real conversations between divergently-viewed people are at premium market value, now more than ever.
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Thanks to the folks over at Everything Is Fine, the best Substack on Substack, for supporting the effort.

I recently lost two friends. But since this is not 1944, you should take that to mean they dropped me on Facebook. Despite regularly expressing my political views online, I go to great lengths to avoid beef in daily life. Which is probably less a matter of Zen equanimity than how overly distracting I find it to be on bad terms with good (or even bad) people. 
A month ago, I wrote about the Michigan Mormon Church shooting that immediately followed Charlie Kirk’s Utah shooting. Kirk’s murder was committed by a member of the church, while the Michigan attack was against a church; each necessitated discussing certain LDS (Latter Day Saint) beliefs.
The friends were Mormon women who felt I was mocking their faith. They were correct that the tone was not fully respectful, but on the whole I feel if a fairly sober and accurate recitation of some of the more implausible aspects of Mormon dogma is inherently a form of ridicule, it’s the responsibility of the church to address.

A few days later, my friend Diana texted to lend her support. She encouraged me to keep speaking truth to power, as well as to Joseph Smith. I particularly appreciated that sentiment since the last we’d last spoken, she’d been a devout Mormon. When I expressed my surprise, Diana recalled a breakfast we’d had a decade ago, when over waffles she casually referenced her faith, and I apparently replied, “Oh, so you’re in a cult?”
Yeah, I’m not proud of it either. An easy flippancy has served me well at cocktail parties and on first dates over the years, but has more often been the source of next-morning regret over a lack of circumspection. Even so, Diana said she thought about my comment for weeks. Apparently, no one had ever described Mormonism in such a way to her (face) before. Probably because she’d spent most of her life surrounded by Mormons. But that small catalyst (in concert with far more important real life v. doctrine issues) ended up compelling her to examine her faith for the first time — not for what she’d been told it was, but for what it might actually be.
And so we had this conversation:
Sean Beaudoin: You left the church.
Diana Easton (not her real name – she remains wary of retribution): Ha! It sounds so simple when you say it like that. But yes, after 44 years of living it devoutly, I left my faith.
Have you adopted a new one since?
No, I haven’t and I don’t know if I ever will. It’s interesting because I was sold on the LDS religion, believed it with all my soul for so long that when I came to the realization that a lot of what I was taught wasn’t true, it really broke my heart. It’s hard for me to want to invest that much belief and trust in another institution.
It’s impossible not to read that as pulling the plug on a long-term and possibly abusive romance.
You’re not completely wrong with that analogy. There are times when I look back at aspects of my life with fond affection and times when I look back and realize how little control I had over my own fate. How every little step I took was influenced by my religion. What about you? What’s your backstory on religion? Or your current story for that matter?
French Catholic, but basically raised by Bertrand Russell. I guess I see spirituality as a celebration of the math-defying odds of living in an airless vacuum.
Life on earth definitely feels very odd-defying.
I have to assume if there’s a creator so powerful it can summon an infinite universe from nothing (there is no such thing as nothing), humans are as incapable of comprehending such a deity as a badger is of having a nuanced take on Cubism. Who are we to give a name to this god, let alone presume its intents or desires? We barely understand our own conception of physics, and in a few decades it will be mostly wrong.
Yes, as I age, I have come to accept how little I know about everything, really.
The more I practice saxophone, the worse I get. It’s the first true sign of maturity.
You seem drawn by a desire to understand the Mormon church, or at least understand the people in it.
I do find it endlessly fascinating. To me, theology is a rudimentary form of self-comfort, really no different than a Sunday quart of Jack Daniels, or ordering candy from Amazon instead of walking to the store to get it yourself. Jeff Bezos, incidentally, fits nicely into the devil paradigm. I see the concept of “faith” as anti-intellectual, a strangling of evidence that masquerades as philosophy. In the end, true philosophy, if defined as a sincere attempt to understand a common existence, is the only real thing of value that we have.
Do you mean any faith, or organized religion? Or both?
Over two millennia a series of powerful & persuasive men have attempted to convince less-powerful & persuasive men that they alone could interpret the Will of The Creator. It’s mere coincidence that creators on the whole tended to advise that more money, power, and sex be showered upon their interpreters.
Isn’t it ironic that the way to be saved is very often lining some man’s pockets and offering deference to all his opinions?
Instead of irony, I’d say pathological criminality. And by the way, where are all our female religious grifters? Madame Blavatsky? Ayn Rand? Mary Baker Eddy?
We default to using the word ‘man’ when referring to good accomplishments: ‘doctor’, ‘scientist’, ‘inventor’. Let’s keep that same energy going for ‘pathological criminal’.
Fair enough. So what did LDS offer you while you still believed?
Hope and community. The arrogant idea that I knew what was going to happen after I died and that in the meantime God was going to take care of me while I lived. These ideas helped calm me in crisis and uncertainty.
I’m curious if you thought that same hope and comfort applied to all the world’s people. Like, did non-Mormons also have access to the afterlife, or were they screwed from jump?
We were taught that God’s spirit could reside with everyone, but that God’s comforter (the Holy Ghost) could only reside with those in the church, who had been baptized and given this gift. And therefore, it was our mission to bring everyone into the church. Yes, all of them. It sounds so illogical now, but I was taught to believe in miracles.
Did any of the more extravagant aspects of LDS doctrine ever bother you late at night?
I honestly didn’t think of anything as “extravagant”. Polygamy? A thing of the past and necessary, at the time, for the church’s growth. Temple rituals? Those are spoken of in scripture. Golden plates? Yes! The ultimate miracle for God to preserve his words. It was all very normal for me. I’d been hearing this doctrine since birth. And most of the more problematic parts of the history of the church aren’t taught to its members. We are taught not to look outside of the church for information about the church. In that way (in many ways, really) we are very insular. What are some of the more extravagant things you’ve heard about Mormons? They all sound so normal to me so it’s hard to pick out which ones make people raise their eyebrows the most.
Then let’s concentrate on one example: Anyone could (and should) legitimately pick apart Christianity for its endless contradictions, hypocrisies, cruelties, and self-serving dictates. But one defense is that its foundational dogma came from illiterate peasants in the Sinai Desert two-thousand years ago. So it seems implausible that when Joseph Smith was visited by the Angel Moroni in a boarding house in Palmyra, New York in 1823, God was still peddling the same goods.
Are you saying that it should’ve been vastly different? Because it got changed so much over the years? And if God was going to reveal the truth all over again, it should have been in its original form?
I’m saying even a lovingly withholding God should have delivered wisdom that accurately reflected the point his creations had evolved to. By 1823 we’d been through the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment and endless wars and royal ascensions, all the great thinkers, literature and art and music and science, everything that was experienced by Western humanity since Jesus Christ, but God chose to reveal to Smith the same vague dictates of two thousand years earlier, with a few self-serving tweaks.
Oh, so the exact opposite of what I said. Ha! Yes, I can see your point.
Like, why no gospels about Germ Theory? Or the Deuteronomy of Electromagnetism? Even a few pages of Methuselah ranting about Darwin and the evils of Natural Selection?
It’s hard to explain indoctrination to someone who grew up being taught to think critically. We were taught that God and his gospel is unchanging. That man may change and get more worldly, but God never changes. And we were taught not to question. This is the truth. This is how it happened. You believe this. And when you are literally taught it from the cradle it’s hard to deprogram yourself.
I can absolutely see what having experienced life within such a contained system would do to your critical thinking. It’s happened to me at times also, although I think as cultural dogma instead of faith-based. I look back at my younger self and often marvel at what I accepted as totally reasonable and logical behavior.
And the thing is, when everyone around you, people you like and respect, people who are educated and successful, believe it, who are you to question?
You said earlier, “We are taught not to look outside of the church for information about the church,” which to me is the definition of a cult. So…is the Mormon Church a cult?
I mean, my entire last couple answers make it hard to argue that it’s not. I never thought it was when I was in it. But now that I’m out I can see how it falls under the cult umbrella. The most prominent reason, in my opinion, is because of how controlling it is. Everything from what you wear, to what you watch, to what you consume, to what you think, is controlled by the religion.
It’s exhilarating to hear you express that with such self-awareness.
I’ve gotten a lot more self-aware in the last five years. I have a long way to go.
Now that you’re out, do you want a refund for all the tithing, given that LDS is the single largest private landowner in America, and its wealth fund, Ensign Peak, controls three-hundred-billion in assets?
My initial response to this question is to laugh, which is quickly transitioning into wanting to cry. I had no idea how much wealth the church had amassed when I was in. We are taught at least monthly how important it is to pay tithing obediently. How tithing is tied to blessings. I was literally afraid when I left the church that my blessings were going to dry up because I no longer paid tithing. Then when I learned about how wealthy the church is, I became angry that they require tithing from its membership, but I was especially angry that they required it from the poor. Now, yes, I’d love my money back, but I’d rather the church just use more than a tiny bit of its wealth to do good in the world. They could do so much good in the world.
Blessings for money strikes me as so obviously and deeply anti-spiritual, if not a flat grift, that it nullifies any positive aspects of the religion. But, as you say, even if tithing is 100% for the benefit of the supporters of the church and the grace of God, why is there a single homeless or hungry person in Utah? Why does Utah not boast the best schools, hospitals, museums, libraries, and infrastructure in the country? I mean, 300 billion is a very water-into-wine number.
The Mormon church could end world hunger. It doesn’t. It is a corporation and it runs like one.
All religions are untaxed, unregulated international business concerns with massive secret holdings controlled by Devil-tempted original sinners. What could go wrong?
Right?!
On more important footing, I believe I had the single worst plate of Mexican food of my entire life one afternoon in Salt Lake City. Can the Mormon church be held responsible for this?
From one Californian to another, you should know exactly where to get your Mexican food from and where not to. That one’s on you.
Explain Kolob to me.
Kolob? I wouldn’t really consider that a tenant of the Mormon faith. Maybe for the deep divers of the religion. From what I understand, it’s the star closest to where God resides? That is honestly all I know about it. Oh, plus it’s in a song we sometimes sang in our meetings. ‘If you could hie to Kolob’. We didn’t really spend much (if any) time talking about the concept of Kolob.
My understanding is that during The End Times/Rapture, God will pluck the Earth from the Milky Way galaxy and move it to the Metagalactic Center to place beside Kolob and Olibish, two planets near God’s throne. I also find it interesting that Kolob is said to have its own time system, and that one year on Kolob = 1000 years on Earth. I would be interested to know how and with what tools this time discrepancy was measured.
Huh. I have heard none of that. You know more about Kolob than I do, apparently.
And why do gods require the symbolic thrones of antiquity? What’s wrong with a nice suede Barcalounger?
That sounds like a more comfortable eternity to me. Can I join your afterlife?
Also, I’m pretty sure Donny & Marie’s classic album “Goin’ Coconuts” was released on Kolob Records, which sounds like a joke, but is not. Speaking of which, I can’t take any religion seriously that does not have good worship music. Everything from Santeria to Islam has beautiful instrumental and vocal composition as part of its tradition. Catholics have Gregorian Chants and even Evangelical Christians have Stryper, let alone all the fantastic Southern Gospel and Sacred Steel and Ray Charles. If Mormons don’t have boogie to offer, what do they have?
Mormons have the most boring, slow, depressing music ever. My husband and I used to look at each other during hymns and say, “If people were to walk into church right now, they’d think this was a funeral procession.” We literally said that on more than one occasion. Seriously, Mormons need a live band. It would help.
As I understand it, Mormons believe Jesus came to America after the whole Pontius Pilate thing was settled. How exactly did he get to Missouri from Nazareth?
Post-resurrected Jesus could do a lot of things that pre-resurrected Jesus couldn’t, I assume. He didn’t have as many limitations. He appeared to the Nephites in the Americas in his celestial state about a year after he was resurrected, descending from heaven. As far as I remember, Mormons don’t believe he visited the Americas straight from the Sinai Desert.
That’s super-interesting. Jesus, despite being resurrected in human form, is no longer human? I was once told by a devout co-worker that the Apostles built boats and sailed to America from Sinai. As it would be another 1,700 years before the invention of the chronometer and accurate determination of longitude, an Atlantic crossing seems unlikely. What does Mormon literature say about how the native populations greeted/interacted with Jesus upon his arrival?
Resurrected Jesus is a god.
A god, or THE god?
He is definitely not human. He is not limited by human restrictions. Your friend talking about the boats that were sailed over, that was pre-Jesus. He was either talking about the brother of Jared who built submarine style boats or Lehi and his family who built a big ship and sailed over. (Both of these are prophets in the Book of Mormon) Jesus didn’t come by boat. And the native population, according to the Book of Mormon, saw the nail prints in his hands and feet and worshiped him as the Savior they had been taught would come. He taught them and blessed them.
It would require a completely separate conversation, but I feel like I need to know pretty much every last detail about these submarine-style boats. In the meantime, did anyone ever talk about the less savory sides of Joseph Smith?
People sometimes talked about how other people talked about the less savory sides of Joseph Smith. The anti-Mormons. But within the church, no, he was a saint, a hero, “the person who, next to Jesus, did more for the salvation of humankind than any other person to walk the earth.” Not sure that’s an exact quote but that is definitely what we were taught. If there were whisperings outside the church about Joseph Smith being a bad person it was because the world loves to persecute the righteous. I’m curious how other people learned about Joseph Smith. He was just always a part of my knowledge bank.
Do you think there is any significant difference in the dogma/origin stories/metaphysical aspects of LDS and Scientology, or Christianity, or Islam?
To be real with you, I know very little about Scientology or Islam. I wish I did. I wish I had studied more than just my own religion growing up, but the LDS religion requires a lot from its members and it really is all-consuming. We are taught about our own religion over and over again. Never about outside religions. I’d love to hear some of the similarities you’ve found. Now, Christianity, that we consider ourselves a part of.
I’m curious why Mormons desire to be considered part of Christianity when their conception of Jesus is rejected by the Christian church. Is it an offshoot? A sect? In Islam, for instance, Shia and Sunni Muslims have been killing each other for a thousand years over a differing of opinion on who succeeded Mohammad. It would seem there was little room under the Christian umbrella for Jesus visiting America.
Because Mormons believe in the biblical Jesus. They believe in Christ and study and teach the bible. They believe that he was born of Mary and preached the gospel and was crucified and resurrected for our sins. But they also believe that after he was resurrected, he visited the whole earth, all God’s children. Not just one part. I personally think being a Christian is believing in Jesus Christ. So I think Mormonism fits under that definition.
Are there any ways in which your life is worse without LDS?
Very few. Maybe the strain it has put on some relationships with family members who are still in the church. I really do love my family so much and the decision to leave was never meant to hurt any of them. But I know that it does hurt them. I remember being where they are and watching people leave.
I’m very impressed by this commitment to follow your ethics and intellect in the face of what you’ve had to sacrifice in terms of friends and family. It makes me want to give you a secular hug and buy you coffee and an expensive pastry.
I will take your secular hug but I will reject your coffee. It is an acquired taste and after not drinking it for 44 years, I have not yet acquired that taste. I do love a good chai though.
That co-worker I mentioned earlier refused to drink coffee, but downed about a dozen cans of Mountain Dew per shift. He shrugged off my suggestion that the delivery system for the offending caffeine seemed beside the point. I guess that’s the perfect example of when the tenets of a belief system are available a la carte in terms of what is convenient to you personally, it’s all nonsense.
Completely. Even when I was in the church, I thought the very specific items included in the consumption guidelines (Word of Wisdom) and everything that was left out was nonsensical.
Let’s talk the geography paradox: there’s absolutely no chance you would have been Mormon if you happened to have been born in 1979 Syria. Doesn’t that make every other aspect of the religion arbitrary?
I believe that is absolutely true now. Back when I was in the church I thought I was so lucky to have been born into the one true religion on earth. But how egocentric was that?
You said you were taught that Joseph Smith “did more for the salvation of humankind than any other person to walk the earth.” I’m curious how that fits with Mormonism generally being restricted to Utah, and its missionary outposts. For instance, 1.5 billion Chinese seem just fine without Joseph Smith’s input.
Well, we were taught that it would slowly fill the earth until everyone had heard about it. That’s why they continue to send thousands and thousands of missionaries out every year to all sorts of faraway places to preach. But I agree with you, there are not enough Mormons and far too many non-Mormons to ever make a real dent.
Did a geographical God create the universe? If so, was it an easily distracted Mormon god who just happened to have a less omnipotent interest in Buenos Aires than Provo?
Have you even been to Provo?! No, but seriously, I have no idea who, if anyone, created the universe. I was so convinced for the majority of my life that I knew exactly how everything worked and how it went down. But I don’t. And it’s quite freeing to admit that. I don’t know and I don’t have to.
“I have no idea” is a refreshing comment in any discussion of religion. Or, really, on any topic at all in 2025 America.
I’ve definitely been using it more and more as I get older, even outside religion.
Along that line, what happens when we die?
I think this is the question that oftentimes terrifies people into staying in the church. Or seeking out religion to begin with. Because religion has the answer to this scary question. It’s harder to say, I don’t know what will happen after I take my last breath. It’s nice to have answers. It’s comforting. Maybe it gives people purpose or motivates them to do good. Maybe it just staves off fear or anxiety. But personally, I could no longer justify the harm it was causing me and my family. So what happens after we die? I can only hope for peace, in some form or another.
Beautifully said. Let’s finish by talking briefly about what you think of Mormonism’s political arm.
I was always taught that the church didn’t involve itself with politics. We were neutral. How laughable is that? You can take one look at Utah politics to know that’s not true. And prop 8 in California? Spearheaded by the Mormon church. Yeah, they are definitely neck-deep in it. I think it’s hypocrisy at its finest. I think they shouldn’t be tax exempt. I think they shouldn’t have a say in government. But … there are so many things I’m frustrated with in the political arena right now that this could be an entire interview by itself.
I feel like I should make it clear that I am neither atheist nor agnostic. Atheism to me contains a degree of certainty that is central to what I find so problematic in all regions, and I think Agnosticism is a coward’s way out. I aspire to be a Humanist, by which I mean someone who thinks we are all connected on the atomic level, the acknowledgement of which is in itself a pure spirituality, and also that it’s possible to embody a kind, ethical, and humane manner in every facet of existence without the consideration of a reward system in the afterlife.
I love that. That’s a beautiful way to live. I have taken to living this life as if it’s the only one I have. I used to live for the next life. Trying to earn my way into the best afterlife by doing everything that was required of me in this one. I have let that go and with that release have found a joy in the here and now. My relationships feel more meaningful and my care for others more genuine. My curiosity about the world and the people in it more sincere. Sometimes I’m sad that it took me so long to climb my way to the surface of my own life. But most days I’m glad it didn’t take me longer and I look forward to living.
Last thing: what would Mormon Diana have thought of my comments about LDS in the wake of the Charlie Kirk shooting? Do you think (I stand by my words) that I was being unfair or inappropriate? And what does non-Mormon Diana think of the same?
Mormon me would’ve been preoccupied with the few minor things you got wrong about the faith. I would’ve figured that because you got those things wrong you really didn’t know what you were talking about and you were being a bit glib and insensitive. Non-Mormon me, while very disturbed by the events, found your criticisms of the church fair and accurate in tone and message. I think the church should be criticized for those things and that the members should be taught the actual history and problematic beginnings of the church along with the things it continues to do that cause harm.
I am unbelievably pleased that you have made this change in your life! I actually found you to be pretty loveable as a full-time Mormon, but this version has the added benefit of a sense of relief that my ideas, ridiculous or otherwise, do not threaten yours simply by existing.
Thanks, Sean! I’ve always enjoyed talking with you and only ever felt threatened because you’re so damn smart. Never that we thought differently. But I do know what you mean. When one idea cancels out another, it’s hard to have honest, open conversations. Especially when one person (*ahem* me) believed she knew the answers to all of life’s mysteries. I’m glad to be on the other side of that assurance. It’s made me vastly more open-minded. Thanks for the kindness you’ve always shown me on both sides.
SB + DE: PEACE!